Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

29. apríl 2008 00:28

Dear onyourtoes

My attitude offends you does it. So I should just accept that everything in the professional ranks of Dance Sports is OK - no corruption, no propaganda but the IDSF is completely irresponsible and evil. As such my views are not to be trusted.

Yes I suppose I am a bit frustrated at the lack of progress in deveoping our sport along proper sporting and democratic lines. There  are however a few enlightened professionals who see the profession for what it is (in the shape of the WDC) - a self serving undemocratic organisation where only they are right and nobody can challenge that view. Your obvious enamoured view is testament of that.

For me I prefer to decide on how I see yjings based on personal experience. The IDSF may be all you say - I have only your word for that but since it is prrejudiced can I trust your views but at least it does it worst in the open where we can all see it for what it's worth. The same cannot be said of the WDC.

You conveniently ignore the whole line of my views namely that I support neither the IDSF nor the WDC. You also ignore my very sensible suggestion that both sides should grow up and start talking.

I take it hen that since your jaundiced view is so anti IDSF that there there can be no comprtomise. If this is the attitude of both sides then the sooner the Dance Sport industry splits the better. I only hope sanity will prevail.

As for your questions. by virtue of their own rules the IDSF can impose anything it wants. You again conveniently ignored the factthat I said "whether they should do this is another matter."

You asked me if people are against the IDSF it is with just cause, can I understand that. Yes I can, but the same must be with regard to the WDC. It is not all one sided as you believe it to be. If that offends you onyourtoes then so be it.

You accuse me of not sticking with the topic. State exactly what I have said that does not stick to the topic.

You talk much about professional rights but conveniently omit mentioning their responsibilities. But perhaps that is the whole point. Only professionals can have the right to do this or that but amateurs and anyone who oppose this are deemed traitors, anarchists, supporters of restrictive practices.

A rather one sided point of view don't you think. But ask yourself this. In all the years of the WDC (and its fore runners) existence what have professional really done for the development of competitive dancing.?

I can't think of one thing. You might accept the IDSF but at least it has moved us forward.

Regards

Steve

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

29. apríl 2008 14:06

Dear onyourtoes

Please re-read my posts. You seem adept at picking and choosing what you want from my posts and deliberately try to fit them into your own anti view of one particular organisation that offends you to the bone.

I am not an apologist for either the IDSF or the WDC. My views on both are just that, views based on what I see going on and from my own personal experience. I offend no one. If your sensibilities are such that you offend at the slightest thing posted then I am sorry for you. It isn't my problem.

You tell me I have double standards. I take great offence at that. You do not know me and those that do will tell also find your remarks offensive.

In the whole discussion you have not once addressed the issue with any idea of a solution to the many problems our world faces. Rather you continue to bash one particular organisation in the hope that I will be goaded into either WDC bashing or being intimidated enough to agree with your own point of view.

In case you have forgotten yet again.. The troubles we have are down to both the IDSF and WDC. Both are to blame. Not one or the other but both.

If my suggestion that both sides should stop their antagonsim between each other is a crackpot idea, then I'm glad to be called a crackpot.

I do have the interests of all dancers at heart, which I believe from the tone of your posts you do not. Instead you seem more interested in trying your level best to divide the dance world even further than it is already.

In conclusion, both the IDSF and WDC have the right to do whatever it is they want provided it is compatible with their own rules. Currently there is conflict because and neither will be man enough to give way and start talking. Only by talking, I repeat talking, discussion, verbal communication, call it what you will win any of this be sorted out. Continual bashing and attacking people who have another view will not solve a thing.

I refuse to be drawn into your ridiculous and divisive questions.

By the way, the topic is not about integrity. But if it is then the IDSF may be wrong in doing what you say they are doing (but I have my doubts) I do not consider the WDC to have much integrity when they deliberately encourage people to take part in a competition they know will only cause the IDSF to react. Perhaps that's what they want the IDSF to do. If that's the case it is not only petty it's downright disgusting.

Regards

Steve

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

30. apríl 2008 08:38

Dear onyourtoes

I am sorry to have to disagree with you once again. This so called open market policy you eloquently remark upon is in my view just a ruse to dupe people. The reality is if the WDC doesn't recognise a competition because the orgainiser runs it under rules different to the WDC rules, then it is likely they will do exactly what you the IDSF is doing now.

The BDC (a WDC member) recently placed adverts in Dance News informing everyone that ALL comps in Britain should be run under BDC rules and anyone infringing these rules will be disciplined. And I can asure you they would be, despite the fact that the BDC is not the recognised governing body in Britain - EADA  - an amateur organisation - is!

If the BDC believes it has the right to discipline people here where is the difference between this body and the IDSF who are doing the same. The major difference is the IDSF is the only body recognised as the world wide governing body. The WDC isn't.

You asked me to take a look at the IDSF web site. I have done so. I have also looked the WDC site with regard to their amateur league. I have pasted below rules from both.

1. WDC rules

Agrees, as an organizer, to allow everybody to dance in open competitions and make use of high quality judges in good standing such as the judges registered by the WDC.

Agrees, as an organizer, to use the competition-rules of the WDC or rules that are approved and accepted by the WDC (for example the competition-rules of the British Dance Council) on their open competitions.

2. IDSF rules

On December 5-7, 2008 there will be held in Paris a WDC event called "Open World Amateur Ballroom & Latin Championships 2008".

This event is an unregistered event by the IDSF and IDSF athletes, officials and Adjudicators are not allowed to participate in this competition.

Please enlighten me as to the difference between the 2.

The WDC may not decide to impose their 'rule' on competitors but they can do. The IDSf clearly have decided to impose their own rule and you call intimidation. The fact that the WDC chooses not to does not mean they can't or won't in the future.

I agree that is rather unfortunate that the IDSF have decided to impose their rules but they have evry right to do so. Which is why I also urge the IDSF presidium to stop the bickering and get round the table and talk.

I have long believed and still hold the view that the problems that currently exist between the IDSF and the WDC are an accumulation over a long period of history that stretches back to the when the IDSF managed (on its own and without the help of the WDC) to get Dance Sport recognised by the IOC etc.

You ,may argue differently that's your choice, but I repeat what I said in an earlier post, the WDC have done nothing to develop Dance Sport world wide, the IDSF have irrespective of what they are doing in terms of so-called intimidation. I don't call it intimidation - it's ensuring their rules are obeyed.

If you really don't believe that the WDC would not impose itself if it got the chance then continue on the path you are envisaging.

If you really want peace then encourage others (if you have the power to do so) to stop the bickering and start talking. You might just be surprised that the IDSF might just want the same as the WDC. And even if they don't in these early days, compromise is still possible.

You accuse me of prejudice. We all have prejudices. I am opposed to anyone that is prepared to continue urging disharmony when it is possible to get harmony simply by dropping hostility and begin communicating.

You have also called my ideas crackpot. I would like to address this.

If my idea of harmony is crackpot, then I plead guilty

If my idea of removing an outdated barrier between pros and amateurs as happened in many other sports, then I plead guilty

If my idea of developing a proper organisation structure based on sporting and democratic lines is crackpot, then I plead guilty

If my idea of developing proper strategies which can be evaluated for their effectiveness for the development of Dance Sport bot at home and world wide is crackpot, then I plead guilty.

If my aspiration that Dance Sport becomes the No. 1 sport in the world is crackpot then I plead guilty.

Charles Darwin was once (and in some parts of the USA even today) called a crackpot. He has since been proved essentially right.

In Britain, I predicted 20 years ago that competitive dancing here would decline seriously if we didn't do something about it. I was called a crackpot then for coming up with particular ideas. I have since been proved right.

However, a number of people including a fairly prominent professional is now supporting an idea I have. Hopefully we can both identify others who feel the same way - amateur or professional. We both believe that the only way for our sport to develop in Britain is for all of us to work together.

So, if my idea of all involved in Dance Sport working together for coomon goals is crackpot then I plead guilty and will not apologise for it.

Best wishes

Steve

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

30. apríl 2008 09:59

Dear onyourtoes, please re-read my previous post. It has been edited.

Steve

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

30. apríl 2008 10:15

Dear onyourtoes

You said:

If you now want to tell me that it is an IDSF rule that IDSF Adjudicators cannot judge WDC events and you accept that well there is little more to be said-

All through this thread you have tried to goad me into condemning the IDSF. I have consistently refused to do so because it only further encourages division to do so. I refuse to do that.

The points I have made are to address the basic fact which you have contnually ignored, namely that both the IDSF and WDC have the right to impose its rules and regulations if it wishes to. The fact that one has chosen to do so and the other has not has got nothing to do with intimidation.

If I decide to break the speed limit and the police charge me are they intimidating me. No. They are imposing the rules of the country. The IDSF are simply doing that.

As it happens I I do not agree with the IDSF on this. I think they have made a mistake and I hope they will come to their senses.

But I repeat if you really believe the WDC could not do the same then it's naiive.

I also believe they are not going to do so not because they are a nice bunch of people but they probably figure it will only exacerbate the situation. I commend them for that. But I also feel that the WDC plays politics with people as much as the IDSF is doing.

My idea of removing the pro / am barrier won't get rid of politics but at least one thing that stops us working together for our mutual benefit will no longer be in the way.

Best wishes

Steve